Jayme Pendergraft >> Good afternoon and welcome, everyone, to today's Ticket to Work webinar, “Myths about Working While Receiving Disability Benefits.” My name is Jayme Pendergraft, and I am the Director of Communications and Outreach for the Ticket Program Manager. I am pleased to now introduce our moderator for today's webinar, Derek Shields. Derek has 28 years of experience working in the areas of disability, inclusion, employment, accessibility, and reasonable accommodations. Derek has his master’s degree in management and disability services from the University of San Francisco. In addition to his contributions to the Ticket program, he's also president of ForwardWorks Consulting and a co-founder and board advisor of the National Disability Mentoring Coalition. It's now my pleasure to turn the microphone over to Derek. 

Derek >> Jayme, thank you so much for once again a very kind introduction and for starting us off today for our final WISE webinar of the year. Today's Work Incentive Seminar Event is entitled "Myths About Working While Receiving Disability Benefits" and it's a good one. It's one of my favorites because we'll be busting these top myths that many of you have heard or continue to hear about working while receiving disability benefits. And this will help you make better-informed choices about if work is right for you, if returning to work is right for you and about the Ticket to Work program itself. So we really appreciate you tuning in today. If this is your first time with us it’s our final WISE of the year, but throughout the year it's been our pleasure and privilege to be able to bring you this content throughout the year and we look forward to another great session today. And with that, let's dig into our welcome to set the stage and then I'll be introducing our presenter. 

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Okay. That's it for the welcome and doing some of the logistical housekeeping for today. So we're going to move forward. As I mentioned and Jayme mentioned, I'm Derek Shields. I'm the moderator for today's WISE, and I'll be joined shortly by our main presenter, Ray Cebula. First, I'll share a few highlights about Ray and his background and career. Ray received his law degree from the University of New Hampshire's Franklin Pierce School of Law. He spent 23 years providing legal services to individuals with disabilities in their interactions with Social Security and then became part of Cornell University's Work Incentive Support Center, and in 2005 joined the staff of Cornell's Yang-Tan Institute on Employment and Disability. He now serves as the program director of YTI Online, that's Cornell's Work Incentive Practitioner Credentialing Program. I now Welcome Ray, and look forward to Ray's presentations. I'll be back with you all in a little bit for our first Q&A. Over to you, Ray. 

Ray >> Thank you, Derek. Thanks very much. Good to be with you all again. Today we have, as Derek said, a session that talks about the myths and what people on the street talk about when they talk about Social Security. I like to call them urban myths and most of them are incorrect so I hope you listen to us and maybe the next time you're out walking around, you can debunk some myths of some of the people you know. So today we're going to help you answer questions related to debunking those biggest myths about disability and returning to work, talk about the Ticket to Work program, and who can help you achieve your work goals. Debunking the biggest myths about disability and work, you know, there are lots of them out there and we're going to take care of some of them now. 

The first one, "I cannot work and receive Social Security disability benefits." Wrong, just absolutely wrong. Derek just read my bio to you. I've been-- I've spent, it's now 43 years helping people who are disabled and receiving SSI or SSDI return to work. You know, there is nothing exclusive about work and receiving benefits, so just remember that. So these are the facts we need to look at. It's common to be worried that you might lose benefits if you work, but we've got really good news for you. Social Security has lots of safety nets in place to help you try working before your Social Security Disability Insurance or your SSI ends. And these include both the Ticket to Work Program and lots and lots of very good Social Security Work Incentives. So what is that Ticket to Work? You know, the Ticket to Work Program started in 2001. It's part of the Ticket to Work Act, talking a little piece of that, the Ticket to Work program. First of all, it's free and it's voluntary. You do not have to return to work simply because you received a ticket from Social Security. This is completely your choice. We hope that you try it, but it's completely up to you. And what that Ticket Program offers is career development for people who are the ages 18 through 64 who received a Social Security Disability Benefit, either SSDI or SSI, and want to go to work. 

How can the Ticket Program help you? The Ticket to Work connects you to free employment services that might help you decide if going to work is the right thing for you. You know, help you prepare for work. Do you need to have skills you used in a former job updated? You know, do you need to get a certificate of some sort to be able to do the job that you want to do? They can help you find paid work opportunities, you know, in terms of internships, you know, and then finding that job, you know. 

Now look at this next bullet, "succeed at work." We're not just going to get you a job and let you run free. We're going to be there to help support you as you get used to this job, you know. And so we're not going to drop you until you tell us you can do this on your own now. You know, we can learn more on the Web Links pod, what is Social Security's Ticket to Work Program, and there's a self-guided tutorial for you in there. Lots of good information. The Ticket to Work Help Line can also help you get started. Where's the first place to go? Do you want to talk to a planner? Do you want to talk to an Employment Network? You know, there's no wrong door, but the Ticket to Work Help Line offers a toll-free help line to answer your questions and support you on your journey to financial independence. They'll get you hooked up with somebody that you can speak with. You know, call the Ticket to Work line Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Eastern time. And the phone numbers are 1-866-968-7842. And for TTY users, 866-833-2967. We'll repeat those a couple of times before we're finished today. 

Other Social Security Work Incentives, you know, Social Security has many rules and programs that support people when they're trying to work, and they are called Work Incentives. And what they do is basically disregard portions of your income, you know, so that if you have a thousand dollars in earnings over the course of a month you can use Work Incentives to further reduce that so that it might not have any impact or a minimal impact on your benefits. So the Work Incentives are going to apply to SSI and SSDI, but there's a catch here. They're very different Work Incentives, so it's very important when you're talking to somebody that you know what benefit you're receiving. And if you're receiving SSI and I tell you all about the SSDI Work Incentives, you know, we've made no progress, so make sure that you're aware of which benefit you're receiving. And if you don't know, you can't find a notice that Social Security has sent, call that Ticket to Work Help Line. If you have questions about Work Incentives, what are these Work Incentives? We may mention a few of them, but we're not going to talk about a lot in detail today. It's a different webinar. You can contact that Ticket to Work Help Line. They can give you some general information along with referring you to somebody who can give you detailed information about how these Work Incentives will work for you. 

Now here's a big one. You know, when I'm training benefits planners and I get to this slide, I say these are a few of my favorite things because there are so many Impairment-Related Work Expenses out there, or IRWEs. Now, what is an IRWE? There are costs for items or services that you need to work because of your disability. Social Security is going to take your monthly income and deduct the cost of these items or services before they determine how much countable income you have. Now, an IRWE has criteria, of course, the item of service enables you to work. My blood pressure medication, it enables me to work. Do I need it because of a physical or mental impairment? Yes, I have high blood pressure. Do I pay for the item myself and are not reimbursed by any other source? Well, I don't pay for it all, but I pay my copay. And the cost is reasonable. The copays that you might pay for medication are going to be determined to be reasonable. So maybe I have a $10 deduction every month. Now, go through everything that you have that meets that criteria and it's going to add up real quickly. 

Now here are some examples. A prosthesis, you know, if I have an artificial leg, you know, I am going to be able to charge for the cost of the leg, any repairs that have to be made, any upkeep, any lubrication I may need so that that, you know, attachment to my thigh does not hurt and allows me to work. Very easy and a constant source of deductions by calling that an IRWE. Modifications to your vehicle related to your disability that allow you to commute to work. You know, you can get some of these from the Vocational Rehabilitation Agency in your state, but listen, what I said, it's not a deduction because you didn't pay for it. But if you do add things to that, or you have your own vehicle modified, the cost of those modifications are going to be an IRWE. And look at the puppy here, great, beautiful dog here. The expenses for guide dogs or service animals that enable you to work. Now if anybody has puppies, and I've got three of them, you know they're not cheap. You know, we have to get a puppy, right? Then we include training, food, their license, you know, veterinary services, you know, all of that stuff is included when you decide how much it costs every month. Now with three dogs, I spend a lot of money every month feeding them and licensing them and doing all that stuff. If that was a service animal or a guide dog, all of those expenses would be Impairment-Related Work Expenses. Those are just a few examples. If you think about your activities of daily living, what happens when the alarm goes off? What happens when you get out of bed? What do you do? You know, are you taking medications? Well, think about each one. Maybe the copay or the cost of an over-the-counter drug is going to count as an IRWE. What do you do over the course of the day? Do you take more meds at lunch? Do you take more meds at dinner or before you go to bed? And think about everything that you're using that might be of assistance to you to work. Wonderful, wonderful things and people just don't think about it because you assume, I've got to take my blood pressure medication, right? Well, I do, but I can also deduct my costs. 

Now, we're moving into the first phase of Work Incentive for an SSDI person, Social Security Disability Insurance benefits, and that first Work Incentive that becomes available to you is the Trial Work Period, TWP. It's one of many, you've got a long journey to go before we're going to run out of Work Incentives. If you receive SSDI, the Trial Work Period allows you to test your ability to work for at least nine months. You know, the months do not need to be consecutive, but you do need to earn a certain amount of money. If you earn below that, it doesn't count as a Trial Work Period. The good thing is that you're going to receive your full benefit check, no matter how much you earn, you know, as long as you keep reporting work activity to Social Security. You know, you have to report things to Social Security, and I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't, you know, but it's required. When you applied for benefits, that was one of the conditions that you report things that might affect your benefits. So report all the time, you know. But listen to that. I could be getting an SSDI benefit of, let's say, $2000, and I'm going to go to work. For the first nine months while I'm learning the new job, while I'm seeing if it's the right job for me, whether I'm determining how much capacity and how many hours a week I can work, I'm going to get my full check. So if I make $3000 in a month, my income has just increased to $5000 a month. And that goes on for those nine months. Again, they don't have to be consecutive. They do have to fall within a five-year period. It says so right here. You're going to accumulate them if you earn more than $1160 in a month. You will also, if you're self-employed, be using a trial work month if you work 80 hours in a month. So that's a little different because people who are self-employed can work very hard and very long hours and not actually have any income yet. But they are doing significant work. Now, that's in 2025, 1160 and 1 cent or more, and you use a trial work month. Social Security considers that to be a service month, and if we use that in January, we have eight more left before we're going to move into the next phase. 

Now, that IRWE that we talked about and all of those other Work Incentives don't come into play during these nine months. And you don't need them because you can earn as much as you want without any penalty whatsoever. But what I suggest is if you have those IRWEs, you get in the habit of keeping receipts every month so that when it comes time to use them, after that nine-month Trial Work Period is over, you're in the habit of collecting those receipts to show Social Security what your expenses are. So you can look at the Ticket to Work period or the Trial Work Period fact sheet to learn more about that Trial Work Period and about other Work Incentives that are available when you complete your Trial Work Period. You know, the next one is called the Extended Period of Eligibility. You might hear it called the re-entitlement period, but we're going to go with EPE, the Extended Period of Eligibility. That's going to be a 36-month period, where your income will be considered Substantial Gainful Activity or not. I'm sure that's a term you've heard. We're not going to go into that. Again, that's another webinar. 

So let's talk about the next myth. "If I go to work, I will automatically lose my Medicare or Medicaid." Now, I can't tell you how wrong that is. That is very incorrect. In fact, in most states, you've got to work really, really hard and earn an awful lot of money before you're at risk of losing these benefits. They may come in different forms, but you're going to keep your health care. You know, I can almost promise you that you're going to keep your health care, even though you're going to work. The facts are, if you receive SSDI or SSI in any amount, you keep your Medicare or Medicaid. If you're getting a check from Social Security, you are going to keep your benefits. If your benefits payments stop because of your work activity and your earnings and you continue to be medically disabled according to Social Security, you're still going to keep your Medicare and Medicaid. They're going, as I said, to come in different forms and you're going to keep them through Work Incentives, such as the extended period of Medicare coverage, you know, such as 1619(b) for SSI recipients. And then 46 states out there have what's called a Medicaid Buy-In program, where you essentially can purchase Medicaid. Lots of states do it on a sliding fee scale according to how much money you make every month. Some don't even have any limits. You know, California is a state that's just going to let you work, and as long as you're working, you're going to get your Medicaid. You know, lots of states have these limits well into the $100,000 range. You know, I think in New York it's $143,000 this year before you're going to risk losing, you know, before you'll be considered able to pay for your own health care. Great protective programs that generally, in my experience, take care of everybody for just about ever. You know, you always turn 65 and you're just aged, at which point you may still be eligible for all of these benefits. 

Now, here are some of these specific Work Incentives again. Medicaid. Medicaid while working, we call the program 1619(b). It just allows the federal government to pay you SSI despite the fact that you're working. And then the Medicaid Buy-In, again, fabulous programs. These two programs changed the game for Medicaid recipients because, again, you know, when somebody with a serious disability returns to work, they may not be able to work 40 hours a week. They may be limited to 20. You know, we don't know how long that's going that's going to be, you know, lots of people have cyclical disabilities. These programs are going to help you keep that Medicaid. And on the Medicare side, Medicare generally comes with SSDI, Social Security Disability Insurance. We have that extended period of Medicare coverage. That lasts for at least 93 months after your Trial Work Period. Seven and three-quarters years. That's a long time, so we don't need to worry about that immediately. We need to worry about becoming a worker and getting used to that new lifestyle. Medicare for people with disabilities who work, you know, that's what's called premium HI or premium health insurance. Once you exhaust your extended period of Medicare coverage, there is going to be a way for you to purchase Medicare, should you need that at that point. You know, and then again, when you turn 65, you're going to get it based on age. 

So 1619(b), what are the requirements? You have to have been eligible to receive SSI for at least a month. It's just about everybody, likely everybody in this room, if you're on SSI you've had it for a month. You continue to meet Social Security's definition of disability. Just a hint here, Social Security's not going to look at your case just because you go to work. You know, those medical reviews are scheduled, and they will happen. There are some protections from that as well that we might get into someday. How about still meet all the non-disability requirements for SSI? You know, you have to be disabled in SSIs and needs-based program, so you have a limit as to how much income you can receive and how much resources you can receive. Forget about the income. That's going to be fixed by 1619(b). But what about resources? The current resource limits are $2000 and $3000. You still have to keep your savings below that. Whatever's in your checkbook, it's got to be below $2000 if you live alone, $3000 if you're a married couple. But we've also got those ABLE accounts out there, you know, that can take some of that savings that you have and protect it from Social Security counting it. So lots of great ways for you to save money nowadays. You need those Medicaid benefits in order to continue work. A lot of times, the Medicaid benefits that you're receiving are the services that are allowing you to work. And it sort of wouldn't work very well if you went to work and you lost Medicaid, because if you lose the services you need to work, you're not going to continue. So you're going to continue to get those services that you need through the Medicaid program. And you have gross earnings that are below your state's threshold of eligibility. It's a very complicated calculation that they do, that the states do, but every state's going to have a different threshold. I'm going to tell you to google the 1619(b) threshold and you're going to find your state really quickly and see how much you can earn. It ranges from $35,000, I think Alaska is up to $75,000, before you would need to switch to another program. The Medicaid Buy-In program is that program. You know, this is an optional service. It's not just for people who receive SSI, it's for people who receive SSDI, and it's also something that's available to people who are disabled and don't qualify for Social Security. Now again, there are 50 of them, and there are seven territories, so there might be 57 of them. We've got 46 states who have them at this point, and again, you're going to be able to work, earn a good amount of money, either from employment or self-employment and be able to save some of that if you use-- if you have some of those protected savings devices, such as the ABLE account. You know, people who receive SSDI benefits may be eligible for these programs as well. It's all going to depend. You know, again, I keep looking at California, there's no resource level, none, to the Medicaid Buy-In. If you're working and you need these services and you're making $150,000, you get the services so long as you continue working. You know, one way to find out what is available specifically in your state how your programs work is to contact your Medicaid agency or google, you know, "Medicaid New York" and you can find the program manual and check up on that yourself if you want to. 

Now, Medicare for people with disabilities who work. This is available to people who are working, of course, it's a Work Incentive, you know, and you have passed the point where you're getting premium-free Medicare. Now that part A is premium-free. You pay for it while you're working, but it's premium-free. You don't pay any extra. So you have to be medically disabled. You have to be under age 65. I told you that because at age 65 you don't need this program, you're just eligible for Medicare based on age. You continue to have the disabling impairment, and your Medicare stopped due to earnings. So this is always going to be available to you, and if you think seven years and three-quarters, maybe you might be in a position to consider this. But you might not. If you're working and still receiving a cash benefit, you're going to still be covered, and that seven and a half years hasn't even started yet. This is a long time out for most people. And to be honest with you, at this point, most people have private insurance through their employers that makes this unnecessary. 

The extended period of Medicare coverage, again, here we go. The best advice I can give you is this will last for at least 93 consecutive months following the end of your nine-month Trial Work Period. It's a long time. Hospital insurance is part A. You know, it covers your inpatient stays along with anything that you need to follow up. If you have to go have, you know, staples removed or you're in physical therapy due to that injury, that's all part A. Now part B, the supplemental medical insurance, is going to the doctor’s because you need a COVID shot. You know, it's going to the doctor’s because you're not feeling so hot today. That's what that's going to cover. And then part D is the prescription drug program that provides you assistance according to what program you enter, you know, what drug plan you enter. It's all going to be covered. You know, part C is not here because that's kind of a mishmash of all of these. I'm not going to be able to help you decide which one you should pick. You know, I'm in the middle of that debate myself. 

All right. So if you have Medicare questions, for more information, please visit medicare.gov, you know, again, a quick website. The Medicare site is really, really good. It really is, and it's very helpful. I only say that because if I can do it, everybody on this call can do it. Or you can chat and talk to somebody live, 24 hours a day, seven days a week at 1-800-MEDICARE, which is 1-800-633-4227, or for TTY users 877-486-2048. And you really can talk to somebody and talk to somebody quick and get all kinds of information about the programs that you're on now or what types of programs you may be looking to take advantage of. 

So, myth three, "If my Social Security payments stop because I go to work and I then have to stop working because of my disability, I will have to apply for benefits all over again." That's wrong too. That's wrong too. And we're going to talk about how that works because this was truly a game changer. People used to be afraid of having to apply over again. So the law was changed and it gives you an easy on. Now what are the facts? If your benefit ends because of work, you know, and those earnings, and you stop work within five years of a benefits termination, you'll be able to get your benefits started right away. Now, you know, this is the only program that I'm aware of that is still looking out for you after you're terminated for benefits. If you are terminated because of earned income, for five years Social Security will let you back in. You have to apply for this. It's called Expedited Reinstatement or EXR. You must have the same disability that you had before the termination or something very much related to that. You must also not be working at SGA. So you don't have to stop working, but your income has to drop. You know, you can get benefits back again. I'm going to flip the slide over again. Here it is, EXR. Again, five years after your benefits have been terminated, you know, it will allow six months of provisional benefits of the temporary benefits payments while you're waiting for Social Security to determine if you can be reinstated. You know, you may also be eligible for Medicare and Medicaid during that provisional period of benefits. You know, so almost immediately. Now what's the date? This is a good date, the date's the 18th today. If I go in to apply for EXR today, you know, because I'm betting Social Security has all of their payments cut for the month of January, I may have to wait till February 1st, but I will be paid January through June, those six months. If I get a decision that I am reinstated in month three, I only get three months, but then I'm in regular payment again. This is going to last for a long time. Again, five years. If you pass that five-year period, then you're going to have to reapply. You know, but with the five years of EXR, look at what you've already done. You've probably got another four or five years of work. So it's actually been after close to nine years of working that you won't have to reapply. Derek, I'm going to put it back to you to see if we have any questions. 

Derek >> This is Derek speaking. Thanks, Ray, for busting those three top myths about returning to work and keeping your disability benefits, outstanding content. We have had a lot of questions come in, thanks so much for sharing them. Just a reminder, sometimes the questions get a little personal and we're not able to answer all those like really personal or individualized situations. And we do encourage you to take those questions to our helpline where I provided that number. We'll provide it a couple more times before we close out. As always, we do have one of the most common questions is, "How can I get the slides for this content?" And that will be provided. It is in the Web Links pod. If you want to access that content, you can go through there, but it will be online at our ChooseWork website afterwards. If you go to choosework.ssa.gov, that's the website where we have all this content. If you go to that Webinars and Tutorials section, right along the top blue row, there's a sub-area called WISE on Demand; you can get the recording here for everything Ray said and also access the transcript and slides. 

So, with that, right, let's jump into some questions. We have a couple of technical ones but I'm going to start out with one that came in from a couple of folks about the Ticket Program. You went through some of the things that Ticket Program can do and somebody-- a couple of people want to know about, more about preparing for work and finding work. What are the things-- you know, they're concerned. I don't know how to do that. What can the program do to help alleviate those concerns preparing and finding work? 

Ray >> Yeah, thanks, Derek. There are lots of things that are available to you. It sounds like you'd be working with an Employment Network or an EN to get some of these services. It could be almost anything, you know, talking about what types of jobs you want. You know, if you have worked in the past, you know, what can you still do in that profession? You know, what kind of assistance will you need to bring your skills up to date? What kind of rehab might you need to allow you to do that job? You know, how about preparing a resume? You know, I haven't prepared a resume in 25 years. My guess is they look a little different. I would need help to do that. You know, how do I explain to a prospective employer, you know, about that five-year gap, you know, while I was out receiving disability benefits? You know, there are Employment Networks out there who can help you fill that gap. There's lots of things you've done while you weren't working, that could bring new skills, could actually bring a new career based on your interests. 

Finding a job, where are the jobs in your local area? Who's accepting applications right now? The Employment Network should know what does this employer do when a disabled person applies for the job. Do they have a good track record of getting people integrated into the workplace? Do you need to go to school? You know, again, if I want to be a plumber, I have to go to plumbing school and get a certificate and a state license. You know, the ENs can help with that. You know, it's more than likely they'd call in the State VR agency to pay for that education or training that you might need. But that's okay. We can do this with everybody helping. There are lots of partners out there. And then if you want to know what's going to happen to your benefits, there is a whole bunch of benefits planners out there who can provide you with assistance, you know, based on what your expectations for an hourly wage are, what your expectations are for the number of hours of work you're going to work each week, you know, we can project what might happen, you know, so that you're aware of when changes are going to come and you can prepare for those changes. So I mean, it's really unlimited, Derek, depending on that person's circumstances. 

Derek >> Ray, thanks. This is Derek again. I appreciate that. I think, you know, there's some more of this content I know you're going to get into a little bit later about the employment team. But, you know, some of these Work Incentives don't matter if you're not going to consider going to work. So one of those areas is building confidence about preparing and finding work. Let's turn now to some of the technical questions we have. And the first is a group that we've received around Impairment-Related Work Expenses for the IRWE content you covered. So the first one is kind of straightforward. "How do I know if something I use or pay for is eligible for that expense?" 

Ray >> Good question. You know, you really don't. The three criteria are, do you need it because of an impairment? Do you need it to work, which is just about everything, right? Take my blood pressure pills again. I need them because of my high blood pressure. I need them to work. If I don't take them, I'm not going to work. And do I pay for it without any reimbursement from insurance or from mom and dad, anybody? You know, if I pay for them, as I said, I pay a copay, that's five bucks a month, I'm guessing. You know, so five bucks a month is an IRWE. You know, if I have a pet that's a service animal, you know, the cost of grooming that pet, you know, the cost of training the pet, picking up that bag of dog food, just keep a receipt for it, you know, and you will have those IRWEs. And it's hard to tell you, you know, Social Security does have a list, but it's not limited to what Social Security's list is because it's really almost anything if you think about it. You know, things that you may need during your daily living could be IRWEs if you go to work. You know, I once had a client who used adult Depends. Well, she used them anyway, but did she need them for work? Absolutely. You know, did she pay for them? Absolutely. Were they needed because of an impairment? Absolutely. So the cost of her Depends for the entire month became an IRWE just because she chose work. You know, so they will be approved at Social Security to the effect that if you submit a hundred-dollar receipt for those adult Depends, your income is going to be reduced accordingly, you know, your countable income is going to reduce. So, you know, it is truly limited, and that's why I suggested watching what you do every day. You know, do you have a pill that you take, you know, for an impairment that might cause you stomach problems, and in order to help with those stomach problems your doctor has said try a bottle of Tums? Well, the bottle of Tums is now an IRWE. You know, so write things down as you're going through your day, starting tomorrow just to test. Do I have any IRWEs? And think about everything you do, you know, that might fit into that category. 

Derek >> This is Derek. Thanks, Ray. Yeah, I like that a lot, an IRWE inventory. And you said there's three things, but I think I heard four. So it has to be attached to an impairment, it has to be related to work, you have to pay for it without reimbursement, and then do I have proof or like a receipt? So as you go through your IRWE inventory, maybe a little grid you can make that categorizes those things. When you do all that, is there a limit, like, or is this an unlimited amount that could be used as IRWEs? 

Ray >> It's an unlimited amount. The only limit is how much income do you have from work each month. You know, if you have $1000 in IRWEs and you're making $750 a month, you only need $750 to cancel it all out. You know, but some of these IRWEs can-- yeah, some of these IRWEs can be very expensive and people just don't realize it because they're, again, using things every day. Well, do you need it to work? And are you paying for it? And keep those receipts and you're in business. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. This is Derek again. A follow-up there. "Can I claim IRWEs if I am, you know, self-employed?" You mentioned self-employment as a model, so somebody is considering that. Can IRWEs work against that eight-hour kind of workday total? How does that work? 

Ray >> You know, it works if you have income from self-employment. You know, if you're working to get your business up and running, you know, and you're not making any money because Social Security is looking at net employment, net earnings from self-employment. You know, your business may take $2000 in a month. But you had to pay for things, right? You paid for rent if you're renting space, heat, advertising, buying products if you're selling something, you know, supplies if you're giving a service. You know, so we have to figure out what that net income is and if there is any, you can then use the IRWEs to reduce it further. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. All right. So, let's shift over to the Trial Work Period now. And we've had a couple of questions on this and it's kind of Trial Work Period and then Medicare and Medicaid and SSI and SSDI, kind of what goes with what. So with the Trial Work Period, it's available for people with disability insurance. What about Supplemental Security Income, SSI? 

Ray >> It's not available to SSI recipients. Remember I said earlier when we talked about Work Incentives generally, that there are two different types. One belongs to Title II or SSDI, one belongs to SSI. Because SSI is a needs-based program, Social Security is going to count the money that comes in. If, you know, you get a gift for $100 today, that's countable income. And Social Security is going to want to know about it. You know, if you go to work, then we have a whole list of deductions and exclusions that apply to your earnings to reduce those. And I'm going to give you shorthand now. The very basic formula is take your gross wages, subtract 65, and divide by 2. Social security cares about less than half of what an SSI recipient makes. That's the base. Then we look at IRWEs and subtract more. You know, if you're a student and you're working, Student-Earned Income Exclusion is a significant way of eliminating just about everything you have made. You know, so we have different-- it's a different formula. It's a calculation scheme and certain things are taken in certain orders, and they're really good. I mean, they're very generous Work Incentives. You've got to separate it. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. It's helpful. I have a pretty direct question here. "Can I start and stop the Trial Work Period?" 

Ray >> Absolutely you can. You know, if for instance, you are starting a job in January and you're working in January, you work in February, and then in March, you have a little bit of an exacerbation and you have to cut your work back and you're not using a trial work month, you don't earn that $1160, that month doesn't count. You know, if you have an exacerbation in March and you stop working completely and can't go back to work for three more months, those three months where you're not working don't count. You've used those first two in January and February, but then in March, April, May, June, in July when you go to work, if you earn money that's more than that 1160 figure, you will use another trial work month. The trick is that you need to look at those months and all nine trial work months have to fit into a five-year period. You know, that's a little bit confusing. In fact, it can be very confusing because you're going to have more than nine trial work months. You know, the older ones, you know, have a shelf life. It's like a cake mix box. You know, it's good for two years. Well, your trial work months are good for five years and they're falling off until you catch nine of them, you know, in five years, and they don't have to be consecutive. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. So we have time for one more question before we have you proceed with the next segment. It's about Expedited Reinstatement. "If I try work and have to use Expedited Reinstatement but then I try to work again later, am I still eligible to use that Work Incentive again?" 

Ray >> That's a really good question and I'm going to tell you what happens. If you are reinstated, excuse me, and after you're reinstated, you know, you collect 24 monthly cash payments. Now that doesn't have to happen 24 months in a row, but it has to happen in that five years, right? That five-year EXR period. So if I collect that, those first six months, the provisional benefits I talked about are part of that. So I've collected six months. If I collect 18 more checks, I get to start all over with a new Trial Work Period. You know, so we go through the Trial Work Period again, the EPE again, and then if we're terminated because of work a second time, EXR for another 60 months. You know, so these can come back. Again, everything that's happening has to happen because of earned income, because of work activity. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. This is Derek. It sounds like we have some other people that really like that information, four-legged friends there. 

Ray >> Yeah, they're excited about it. 

Derek >> Yeah. No, thanks for going through it. I mean, what I've learned from this content and from the questions is we bust the myths with a lot of good information about Work Incentives that provide a lot of flexibility to make work possible and retain benefits for a long period of time, but it's a little confusing. So I really look forward to this next section that you get into with who can help you achieve your work goals and help navigate the Work Incentives. So let's go back to you for the next section and then we'll be back in a little bit for our second Q&A. Thanks a lot, Ray. 

Ray >> Thank you, Derek. You know, you hit the nail right on the head, Derek. This is horribly confusing, but there are people out there who can help as part of that Ticket to Work Program. Again, free and voluntary, so take advantage of free services that might convince you to go to work and that might help you significantly while you're on the job. 

So who can help you achieve your work goals? We're going to talk about an employment team, you know, people who are available from very different agencies that can provide very different services, and it depends on what you need, right? Your team may be different from the person across the street. So who can help you achieve these goals? You know, if you think about going to work or possibly changing careers, you're going to have a lot of questions and they're certainly confusing. What I've told you today is confusing. You know, if it's overwhelming you, don't let that happen because there are people who can help you get explanations. And again, plan everything so you know what exactly is going to happen as things should. 

Okay. So, connecting with a Ticket Program service provider can help you develop achievable goals, establish steps to find and maintain employment in your new career. You know, that's one thing too that I think is important. We can help you get a career. We don't need to just get you a job. If you want a job that can develop into a career, we're on board with that. Okay. So the Ticket to Work Program providers can even help you identify the type of career that you might enjoy and any transferable skills you have. I talked about that five-year gap when I received disability benefits. How do I explain that to an employer? Well, a Ticket to Work Program provider might ask you about what you did. And if you learned how to knit and were making things, you know, you were developing new skills. How about working in a yarn shop? You really have that yarn and all those different types of wool and everything down pat. You know, maybe you could do a class in that yarn shop. And we can go further than that. Maybe someday your goal is to have your own yarn shop, you know. So, we can do all of that using the Ticket to Work Program. And, you know, again, everybody who's had those gaps has done things that might make transferable skills for work. 

So let's talk about some of these providers. Through the Ticket to Work, you'll have access to a variety of service providers, including Employment Networks. We call them ENs for short, and the State Vocational Rehabilitation Agency, VR for short. We'll talk about these in more detail now. The Employment Network is a private or public entity that has an agreement with Social Security to provide you with free employment support services. You know, if you're eligible for that Ticket to Work, remember we said you had to be 18, we didn't say you had to be 18 and determined to be a disabled adult. You know, all up through the age of 64 you've got a ticket. You may not have it in your hand, but you've got one. Many State public workforce systems, you know, those American job Centers, they used to be called one stops, are called Workforce ENs and they're great places. You know, because you can sit down, take access to a computer, see what kind of jobs are available in your area, you know, start producing your resume and get some help in putting that resume together. You know, I can't tell you we're going to do things for you, but we're going to definitely do things with you. 

How can that EN help? You know, these services are designed to help you on the path to financial independence through work. And they might be identifying your work goals. What do I want to do? What can I do? Write and review a resume. Prepare for those interviews. You know, interviewing is a skill. You know, we're all going to want to have some practice interviews so that we're ready to take on that employer when they ask us questions and when we have to ask them questions. How about requesting reasonable accommodations? If you're not aware of what those accommodations might be, the Employment Network might be able to help you discuss that. And as I said, we're not letting you go once we get you a job if you find that you need reasonable accommodations after you have a job and have been working a while. By all means, we're going to be here to help you make that request in the future. In receiving benefits counseling, many of the Employment Networks have benefits planners housed within their offices. And those benefits planners are the people who are going to tell you, okay, if you go to work and you earn $1500 a month, this is the outcome. This is what's going to happen to your benefits. Nothing's going to happen to your health care, you know, things like that. You know, what kind of IRWEs do you have? All of that stuff is going to be taken into account. And there's a plan that's going to be put together for you. You know, you're going to be working and you're going to use that Trial Work Period in the first nine months of employment. Then we enter the EPE. $1500 is below Substantial Gainful Activity. You're going to keep getting your benefit checks. And we'll talk about when you might get a raise, when you might take on more hours, and how that is going to change things. So all of that could be available from your EN. 

Then we have to move to the State VR agency. And they're a player here, too. As I mentioned earlier, if you're looking for an education, you know, that certificate in plumbing, and, you know, an associate’s degree, you know, a bachelor's degree, VR is going to be the agency that has enough funding to get that for you. So we might be playing with both, you know, getting services from both. Okay. So, a State VR agency provides a wide variety of services to help people with disabilities return to work, enter new lines of work, or enter the workforce for the first time. You don't have to have a work history to play with the Ticket to Work, you just have to want to work. And those State VR agencies offer many, you know, many of them offer benefits counseling as well. You know, vocational rehabilitation. I mentioned that. If I'm using a prosthetic and I'm going to get a prosthetic leg, I've got to learn how to use it. I've got to learn how that's going to affect my ability to work and maybe do certain tasks a little bit differently. That's the type of service I'm going to get from the VR agency and training and education. We're all sitting here on the computer listening to this or a cell phone listening to this. You know, what if I am a computer programmer and I haven't worked for the last 10 years? I'm going to have to go to computer school to get my skills back up to snuff, you know. That's going to be something that a VR agency can do for you. And again, if you've never worked in the past, we're going to figure out what you might like to do. You know, what do you have the ability to do? What's your work capacity? Is it 20 hours a week, 30 hours a week, 40 hours a week? So the VR agencies, of course, you know, are going to be, as I mentioned this, working with people who have more significant needs. You know, the services you're going to need are more expensive because, you know, some of the Employment Networks might just be one person who's going to help you with getting this job placement and, you know, refer you to other people, one of them might be VR, to get some of those more expensive services. 

In some states, you know, these services can include intensive training, education, and rehabilitation. Rehabilitation comes first, you know. Then, we're going to start talking about training, you know, and other forms of education that you will need to either enter the workforce or succeed in your new job. They may also provide career counseling, job placement, as well as counseling about how your earnings are going to affect your benefits. You know, if you're hearing this, you're hearing a lot of the same things today, and that's to help you understand that we're hoping we can meet most of your needs before you go to work. We're hoping that we can provide you with information about how your benefits are going to be affected. And if you do lose a benefit, ensure that you'll have more earnings to replace that benefit. So all of these services are going to be necessary. I really believe they are necessary before you enter the workforce again. 

So how do you find these service providers? You know, you can call that Ticket to Work Help Line. Again, that phone number is 866-968-7842. For TTY users, it's 866-833-2967. They're available Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Eastern time, you know, and give them a ring. I want to know who the Employment Networks are in my area, you know. If you want to use the Find Help page that's in your web links, that's going to get you onto the Social Security work page. This is a great tool. I use it all the time. You know, if somebody calls me and they want to know what might be available in their area, I can search by getting their ZIP code. You know, if I want one in the Santa Fe area, I'm going to put in my ZIP code, and I'm going to get everybody that serves that ZIP code. You know, how about the types of services? You know, I have a serious back impairment. Is there somebody on that list that mentions that or says they specialize in physical disabilities? If I have a mental impairment, do I want to go to somebody who focuses on physical disabilities? I don't think so. I need to look for somebody who serves people with mental impairments. We can do that. How about languages? I prefer that my services be delivered in Spanish. Let's see if there's somebody in our area, you know, or it could be via distance as well, we can do this virtually, who speaks Spanish? And what type of service provider are you looking for? Is it an EN? How about a workforce EN, those one-stop centers, or a VR agency? Or you can search for a benefits planner, you know, and limit everything you can get this honed so it will just find the service that you want in your neighborhood. You know, that's a great thing. So use that, play with it. You know, there's no obligation, just play with it and see what happens when you click off EN, you know, and put your ZIP code in, and see who's available to help. All right, Derek, I'm going to toss it back to you and see if we have new questions or remaining questions. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. Yep, we definitely have more questions coming in. This is Derek again. So these are-- we have a couple that we've had in both sets, but you mentioned the Help Line, and you mentioned the Find Help tool. How does somebody find out like which one should they contact if they're trying to figure out if they're receiving SSI or SSDI? What's the best recommendation there? 

Ray >> The best recommendation there is the Help Line because they're going to have access to some of your Social Security records. You know, everybody should have gotten a notice recently about how much their benefits are going to increase beginning January, that notice is going to tell you which benefit you're on. You know, so if you still have that notice, that's a great way of looking too. But if you don't and you're not sure about the benefit that you receive, call the Help Line. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. Next question. "Do I need to use the Ticket Program to find work, or can I go about this on my own?" 

Ray >> You can certainly go about this on your own. You know, there's going to be a lot of questions, you know, that you may have and, you know, you can go find your own job. Look at the newspaper or do a job search on the computer. And if you find your own job, maybe at that point, you want to talk to a benefits planner, maybe at that point you want to talk to an Employment Network because you're ready to apply for the job, but how do I give them a resume? Most of the applications today are done online and they'll tell you what they need. And if you don't give them everything that they need, you're just going to be passed over, you know. How about interviewing? Now that you've found that job, you know, and you're applying for it, are you comfortable being interviewed? Maybe you need help at that point. Or how about if you're on the job, you've been working three or four months, and something happens to your benefits? Well, maybe now you want to talk to a benefits planner to see if, you know, you're using all of the Work Incentives that you have available to you, you know. Lots of people don't have full information about those Work Incentives, and they're truly benefits to help you gradually get to financial independence. But by all means, if you want to do this yourself, that's fine. But just remember that as you hit the hot hole, we'll be here waiting for you to call. 

Derek >> This is Derek again. Thank you, Ray. Somebody-- a couple of people have put this in but basically it's, "Do I have to work full -time or can I work part-time? What's the Ticket Program’s stance on part-time work?" 

Ray >> You know, part-time work is fine, you know. I mean, the ticket is set in place to help you become financially independent. So if your decision is I want to work and I don't want it to have any impact on my benefits, then the Ticket to Work is probably not the way you want to go. You may want some benefits planning to get some facts and figures, but you're not really in need for heavy-duty rehab. You're not going to be in the need for planning to get, basically work yourself off of benefits. So, it's going to depend, you know, there are going to be people out there, the benefits planning communities there, to help figure out how this is going to impact your benefits. Social Security can tell you what those numbers are, call the Help Line, they'll give you the specific dollar amounts, and if you work below that, nothing's going to happen. If you work above that, you're going to have more money, that's all. But, yeah, you know, the Ticket to Work is set in place so that you can become financially independent, you know, which means hopefully you're no longer in need of the benefits that you receive because you've replaced them generally with more income than you have today. You know, and it comes with a lot of other good things, too. You know, if you're not receiving these benefits and you're working, you know, you're out there in the community, you're spending money, you know, just like everybody else who's working. Friday night comes and it might be beer and pizza, you know. We're going to go out after work on Friday and we're going to relax. You know, you'll have more choice, you know, and you won't have to be entangled with these agencies that want to know everything, you know. So, freedom from the agencies might be something that's very valuable to you as well. So, you know, I think the bottom line is if you're thinking about working up to the max, you know, and you're not going to go beyond so it won't have a benefit-- an impact on your benefits, all we're asking you is to give it a try. You know, if it doesn't work out because you can't do it because of your impairment, it doesn't work out. But, you know, if you don't try, you're never going to know. And I think that when people do get to work, despite the limitations that they impose upon themselves, they're going to find that they can work a whole lot more. I mean, it is the best medicine. You know, if I wake up and I've got a headache and I start working, that headache goes away. You know, you're busy, you're not thinking about, you know, your disability the entire-- you know, that's not the entire focus of you. You are now a worker, you're out in your community, sharing what's available in your community, and, you know, making a living. So I think that's enough of that lecture, Derek. 

Derek >> Thanks, Ray. This is Derek again. We've had a couple of comments and a question around the two service providers that you really talked the most about today, the Employment Networks and the State Vocational Rehabilitation agencies. So part of it was, you know, "I talked with my VR, they said I could assign my ticket. I didn't know if that was a good thing or a bad thing." Ray, can you take a minute and explain how VR and ENs can work together and that's in-- it could be in someone's best interest to actually use both those service providers? 

Ray >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, and it is possible. You can't work with an EN and VR at the same time. But if you think about what each does, you know, the VR agency is going to provide you with rehabilitation. You need that rehabilitation work before you're going to be actively seeking a job. So it all plays out logically. But if you are needing education or rehabilitation, work with a VR agency. You don't have to assign your ticket to VR. They can put it in a status called "In Use." You're using your ticket. You'll be protected, you won't have medical CDRs if you're using your ticket and making timely progress, so that's another benefit, that's another Work Incentive. And you're going to become prepared to begin that job search and begin, you know, even the first step of determining what your job might be. You know, if you don't assign your ticket to the VR agency, once you do have all of their services, you can then assign it to an Employment Network. The Employment Network is going to require that you assign it to them because that's the way they get paid. They're paid from Social Security based on the assignment of the ticket and your progress. So if I'm going to need, again, help with my prosthetic, right, I'm going to have to learn how to do my job a little differently. I'm going to have to be trained on how to put that prosthetic on, how to use it, you know. And that's what I need before I can even think about going to work. So I have put my ticket in use with VR. Now that I am okay, I'm walking well, you know, I've learned to lift things a little bit differently than I was doing, and I'm ready to go back to work. I need a resume, and I need some help with the interview skills. I can take my ticket to an Employment Network, assign it to them, put a plan together, you know, and then comply with that plan, you know, until I'm in a job until I begin making money, you know. And at that point, do I need an accommodation? The EN, the Employment Network is still there for you. So you can use both services. You just have to do it in tandem rather than at the same time. Lots of people are doing that. And remember if VR says to you, you have to assign your ticket, you don't have to. You can still get VR services without your ticket. You know, they've been around for a lot longer than this Ticket Program has been. You know, and if you say, "No, I want to put it in use because they need an Employment Network later," you know, they're just going to get paid, the VR agency is going to be paid under a different mechanism. You know, so you don't have to worry about that. So you are in control of how you do this. 

Derek >> Well, Ray, thanks for that answer and thanks for everything you've provided today and dispelling and busting these myths about working while retaining or keeping your disability benefits. It's been great working with you this year and appreciate today's session and all you've done throughout the year. 

Ray >> Absolutely my pleasure, Derek. It's great working with you too. And I look forward to the next year. And everybody, have great holidays, try to relax. Try to relax. This is what I'm calling for, a national relaxation moment during this holiday season. Thank you, Derek. 

Derek >> Thanks so much, Ray. Well, now I'm going to turn to wrap up our session. We just have a few closing remarks and resource slides and then we'll be done. We have learned a lot today. And as we've learned about it, the Ticket Program has a variety of service providers, but also these Work Incentives and the Work Incentives are key to being your resources to just, you know, breaking through those myths and getting to work. We do have a couple of suggestions about how to get started. First, you can contact the Ticket to Work Help Line, as Ray said. You can reach them at 1-866-968-7842 or you can use the TTY line. That's the phone number for people who are deaf, hard of hearing or have a speech disability and use a text telephone to make and receive calls. That number for TTY is 1-866-833-2967. Or if you prefer, you can check out the Ticket to Work website at any time at choosework.ssa.gov. Those are two different options. You can choose which is best for you. 

We have the Find Help tool that's right there on the ChooseWork website in that top navigation row. Just choose Find Help and you can plug in the elements that Ray was reviewing before. You choose how to connect. The important part is connecting. Reach out and start having that conversation so you can learn how to get more involved. With that, and how to connect, we also encourage you to connect with us not just about receiving the services but receiving content from us. You can visit our ChooseWork contact page on that choosework.ssa.gov website and follow us by subscribing to the ChooseWork blog, finding us on social media, or receiving email updates. All of that at choosework.ssa.gov/contact. That link is also in the Web Links pod under the Ticket to Work contact information, number 14 there. 

Next, to get advice and encouragement, we also would love to have you read some stories about people who've achieved financial independence through the Ticket to Work Program’s help, and you can opt-in to receive text messages from us. If you're interested in receiving those, please text Ticket to 571-489-5292. There could be some standard messaging rates that may apply so check that out too. Or you can always email us at support@-- I'm sorry, at tickettowork@ssa.gov. That's our new email address. I'll say it again, tickettowork@ssa.gov. 

Next, we know this time of year can be a stressful period and we care about you and all the members of our community. So today we're also sharing information on the 988 suicide and crisis Help Line. If needed, you can receive confidential, emotional support at any time of day by calling, texting, or chatting with the trained counselors at the 988 Lifeline. You can do this for yourself. You could also do this for someone else you know. Call or text or use the video phone options for deaf and hard-of-hearing individuals. Access 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline in the way you prefer. You can also visit the 988 Lifeline website to learn more about the services that are available in both English and Spanish, along with their supportive resources and connections to providers. If interested, I encourage you to access item number 15 in the Web Links pod. 

And last, our next WISE webinar is being announced. Please join us in January, on January 22nd, from 3 to 4:30 p.m. Eastern time. The topic will be “Ticket to Work and Mental Health.” Registration is now available, and you can do that through the website or calling 1-866-968-7842 or on that TTY line at 1-866-833-2967. Registration will also be available when the webinar closes. The platform will pop up a registration link to the January 22nd session. We encourage you to register to join us to learn more about Ticket to Work and mental health. Thank you again for attending today's webinar and helping us to bust the major myths around working while receiving disability benefits in the Ticket to Work Program. This ends today's webinar.