>> Good afternoon, everybody. This is Ray Cebula from Cornell University's Employment & Disability Institute, and I want to welcome you to today's WISE event, our Work Incentive Seminar event. Today we are going to be talking a lot about self-employment. As you can see, the title of today's presentation is Working For Yourself with Ticket to Work: Achieving Financial Independence. Now, it's very, very important to recognize first off, that work incentives are available, but they are very, very different when we are talking about self-employment, so what we want to do is make sure everybody understands that self-employment is one direction that you may choose to go, but if you do end up changing your mind along the way and you want to get a regular job as an employee for a company, you will need to pay attention to another webinar that we'll talk about a different set of work incentives. Now, we are on WebEx today, so you have a webinar console in the right-hand side of your screen. The most important part about that webinar console, it is the question and answer box. If you click Q&A at the top of your screen, it's going to open this big box right here. You can type in your question here, hit send, and it's going up here on Jamie's desktop, and she's going to tally up those questions. Now, we have a lot of people online, so I can promise you we won't get to all of your questions. What Jamie will do is pick the questions that apply to the largest number of people, so we're not going to be able to answer questions about your specific situation today, but we will get you in touch with folks who can answer those questions. So once again, click on Q&A, that little arrowhead's going to open the box, type in your question, hit Send and it's going to appear on our desktop. Many of you have already been using that Q&A box, so you should be all set. Now you've automatically been connected through your computer's microphone and speakers. We have muted your microphone because it looks like already 250 of you talking at the same time, so the only thing you're going to be able to do with your computer is hear us, and you can either use those speakers through your computer, or if you happen to lose your connection there is a call-in number. What you want to do is click on Audio, Audio Conference and it's going to open up this box. And click use Phone. I will call in. What we're going to do now is give you today's phone number. It is 855-749-4750. It will also ask you for an access code. That access code is 644-748-460, and that will allow you to get back into the webinar using your telephone. SO what we want to do is talk about webinar accessibility generally. We try very, very hard to make sure that everybody can participate in today's session, and we want to know if you're having any difficulty, if you're having difficulty hearing us, seeing us, getting the information you need, or using the Q&A box. We want to know about it. More importantly, if you're having a problem, what we would like to know is whether or not you know of a way to fix that problem, because if you know of a program we can use or some steps the presenters can use to make this easier for you, please let us know that as well, and you can do that by putting something in the Q&A box today, or use the e-mail address that we will give you a little bit later on today. But we really would like to hear what you have to say about that. Once again, today's phone number, if you do lose your computer connection, is 855-749-4750, and the access code is 644-748-460. Now, the closed captioning link for today is www.ilr.cornell.edu /edi/captions.cfm? activity_id=4756. Now, with your confirmation letter and the link to get you into today's session you did receive the PowerPoint presentation today and an accessible PDF and text, so you have all of that for today's session as well. We will be recording today's session and posting it to our archives. We like to ask you for two weeks to get that posted, and you can listen to this archive again or other webinars that are in our archive at www.ilr.cornell.edu /edi/m-WISE-webinars.cfm. We're going to have a question and answer session. We're going to let Colleen do her part, and then we'll probably break for some questions for her, and then Terry will finish up her part, and we'll have another Q&A session. But when you do have those questions, get them into the question and answer box when you think about it. During today's session, I think the chat box has been turned off, so you're not going to be able to use that, and we prefer you don't use that, but if you do want to do that, we're not going to yell at you for doing. You can use the Q&A box as we told you about earlier, or if you want to e-mail, you can send a message to webinars@choosework.net. That's webinars@choosework -- one word -- .net. And if after today's session you think of a question, e-mail that question to support@chooseworkttw.net -- that's support@chooseworkttw -- one word -- .net. Now, before I move into today's introductory slides, I've got some questions for all of you, so before we're going to answer any questions for you, we have to get some answers from you. Very simple, these questions help us with our marketing, let us know who's attending and let us know how many folks are actually attending. So I'm going to open the first question. How did you learn about today's national WISE event? Did you learn by an e-mail, Facebook or Twitter, the website, friends or family, a WIPA project, or some other way? If it was some other way, please let us know. Zap us some information about how you found out about it. [ Inaudible voice ] I had a secret percentage of people I want to participate in these. And we just did that, so I'm going to shut that down, got to wait 20 seconds, and we'll move on to our next question. 7 seconds. All right, now we can move to the second poll. What is it that you hope to learn about today? The Ticket to Work, work incentives for SSI, work incentives for SSDI, employment networks and vocational rehabilitation, or legal protection and advocacy, or something else? Once again, if you do pick something else, click that "Other," let us know, because we have been known to build webinars around your suggestions. [ Inaudible voice ] And question number 3. What is your gender, male or female? [ Background sounds ] Thank you very much. That was quick. That's usually a quick one. The rest are very easy. [ Inaudible voice ] Number 4, what is your age, 18 or younger, 19 to 25, 26 to 40, 41 to 55, 56 to 65, or 66 and older? [ Inaudible voice ] And our age groups are right in the right place for today's presentation, too. Okay, and we know that at times there are people who are watching your computer screen with you, so besides yourself, how many other people are watching computer with you? 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 or more? This gives us a good idea of how many people are actually participating today. [ Inaudible voice ] Thank you very much for that. All right, and today we are going to focus on self-employment, and I will be doing some introductory information and providing you with some other resources at the end of the presentation, but most of our presentation is going ot be about resources, services that can help you build your own business. Colleen is with the New England Business Associates. I'll let her talk about herself a little bit once I turn this over to her, but we do want you to know today that although Colleen's agency is based on New England, there are other agencies, other similar agencies, similar services that everyone in the country can take advantage of. And Colleen was kind enough to join us today to talk about how she approaches the self-employment issue. Then we have Terri Uttermohlen, who will be filling in for Djuna Mitchell from Social Security, who will talk about those very important work incentives and how Social Security can help get you to your goal as a self-employed individual. Once we finish with each section and each presenter, we'll stop and ask questions, and then if we have time at the end we'll also have time for questions. So why would someobdy choose to go to work if they're on Social Security benefits? Got a couple of things here that are very obvious. Most certainly we have earning more income. If your return to work is planned and you do have assistance from an agency or from an employment team that's made up of many different people, that return to work can guarantee that you will have more income than you had on benefits each month. Gaining independence is a very important thing as well. People want to be independent, not only from the agencies from which they have to report when they're getting married, when they move, how many people they live with, how much resources they have, but financial independence, financial stability, allows people to make more decisions about how they choose to live, where they choose to live. Learning new skills, Colleen's going to talk a lot about that. Many of you already have skills. How can we put those skill sets to work to start a self-employment enterprise? You may have to learn new skills. If you're going to be self-employed, my guess is you're going to need to know how to use a computer, you're going to need to know how to use Excel, you're going to need to have some basic accounting skills. We're going to show you how we can get you those skills. Meeting new people is an extra bonus. Lots of things come with employment and with income, and that independence, and meeting lots and lots of new people, remove you from the isolation of public benefits because of your income levels is a great and wonderful thing. So the overall feeling of those of us on the panel and behind this back to work program is that this income that you have is only one part of the goodies that come from work and the independence, the skills, meeting new people, and we can go on and one before we get to how many good things come with work. Now, why would you choose self-employment? Independence is an amazingly wonderful thing. To run your own business is a very enriching thing and a rewarding thing, to make a success of that business, regardless of what it is, how large or small it may be, is a great thing. If you are an independent worker who feels like you would be better off working for yourself rather than working for somebody else and taking direction from them, self-employment is there. You're the master of your own destiny if you become self-employed. Now, just to see if self-employment may be right for you, if you want to meet your own work goals, supply your own reasonable accommodations -- and you don't have to ask yourself, you just have to do it -- transition from benefits to achieve financial independence, and seek your own opportunities to work in new fields, self-employment may be right for you. So what we're going to do at this point is turn you over to Colleen Moynihan. Again, she's with the New England Business Associates, and she's going to talk to us about her program, how they approach self-employment, and what her agency can do for you if you happen to be in New England and what other agencies might be able to do for you in other parts of the country. So Colleen, take it away. >> Thank you, Ray, and I want to say welcome to all of you out there in cyberspace. I hope that this is an information session that will help you reconsider some of the options you might want to follow if you are looking at becoming more independent and seeking a way to be able to determine your own future. I do work with an organization called New England Business Associates, and on that slide you see below it's the Business Development Center, and I run the Business Development Center. We are a stand-alone program that is located in a very unique facility. It's called a Business Enterprise Center, and in that center, we have access to such organization as the Small Business Administration, to SCORE, which is a volunteer organization that helps new businesses become strong and profitable, and we are also with what is called the Massachusetts Small Business Development Center. Every state in the country has an SBDC. It's usually located with a university, but always in an urban center. So these are some of the facilities that we have immediately at our disposal. We are NEBA, which is how we go by is our name, is an acronym, NEBA. We are an authorized Employment Network, and we do a lot of work with ticket holders, and obviously everyone in the audience at this point is a ticket holder, I'm presuming. We as an Employment Network, we work with individuals across the country. I have clients with whom I work in Los Angeles, Nevada, Iowa, Missouri, New York, as well as Connecticut and throughout the state of Massachusetts. We work one-on-one and we use cyberspace or computer links, we use telephone conversations, and if they are geographically handy, we also meet one-on-one. But we can serve people across the United States, and as you can see when we talk about the folks that we serve, we're looking at individuals usually between the ages of 18 to 68, because in Massachusetts and in most states you have to be 18. Why you're seeing age 15 isi that we do a lot of work with youth in transition, individuals who are 15 to 22 who are trying to transition into adulthood and into the SSA benefits on their own. And we have developed a program that uses the business plan model to help them identify what kind of a career they may want to use and how they may want to move forward. One of the things that I think is very important for you as a person who may be interested in started a business, is that believe it or not, all businesses are the same. Now, you may find that to be a bit of a stretch in terms of what you've always thought, but the fact is, all businesses are the same. What is different about the business it that you may have a bakery, you may have an automobile mechanic business, you may have a lawn service, you may be developing video games. That is what you see. That is what we call the technical specialty of the business owner, but that baker, that video game developer, and that landscape person, all have to use the same business concepts to run their business to be working towards success. And by the way, we're going to talk a little bit about success at some point, because that is a very personal thing. So when you are working with NEBA, the first thing we want to talk about is okay, you are an expert in video games. You have a business idea, how do you want to use that business idea? Basically, maybe you want to work in developing video graphics that would be used in the movie industry. Many of the folks who work in that industry are independent contractors. That's another way of saying self-employed. So you can find yourself as a self-employed person, being quote unquote "hired by contract" as an independent contractor, and that means you're still responsible for all of your operating costs, you're responsible for your own taxes, and you are responsible for all of the reporting that goes on as a business owner even though you have a pretty steady relationship with another larger entity that is using you and your services. We write a business plan that is based on the Small Business Administration's model plan. By the way, the Small Business Administration is usually called the SBA, so we work closely with the SBA and we use their business plan template. You can find that on the SBA's website, and you can use the for yourself to start writing your business plan. One of the biggest and most important elements of a business plan are the financials, and we spent a lot of time on the financials. And Ray mentioned the fact that one of the things you're going to learn is how to use Excel spreadsheets, and that's exactly where we start. In fact, when we start a business plan, that's exactly where we start is with the cost. Because here's a key question, and I'm presuming that many of you out there are thinking about one, maybe starting your own business and writing a business plan, or two, you are a provider and you're interested in figuring out how to help your consumer start a business. One of the most important decisions that NEBA had to make when they started this program in 2007 was how were they going to philosophically and with a fiduciary responsibility, offer a business plan and business support to individuals moving forward. And they made the decision that we would work actively to create valid businesses that are going to go out into the community and work and engage with people in the communities. We do not assist individuals to make a hobby more profitable. We do not do that. We are actually looking for businesses that are going to grow over the next 3 to 5 years and ultimately become individuals who may go off of their benefit. So this is an important aspect of our program, and therefore when your business plan is done, we provide ongoing support to help an individual implement their business. So you have three components. You got the business idea, which comes out of your technical skill, you're going to sit down and you're going to work with us one-on-one to figure out how do you translate that into a business so that you know what your mission is, so you know what the goals and objectives of your business are, so you have an idea of your marketing strategy and you know what your financials are. You know what your costs are, you know what your profits are, and this is exactly what we need to do. So Ray, if you would change slides and go down to slide 15, I'd appreciate that. So when you develop your business idea, it takes a little bit of personal analysis. You're trying to figure out, well, here's this idea, how is it going to work as I begin to become a business? Because embedded in all of that is the idea that at some point you may have to step aside and spend either all of your time on business administration, or you're going to spend a lot of time on new product development and other people are going to have to do business administration. So all of this becomes part of writing your business plan. When we talk about implementing your business plan, we're also talking about where am I going to locate it? Right now I'm in my garage. You know, by the way, that's the classic story of how businesses get started. Bill Gates started in the garage. Steve Jobs started in the garage, and as the commercial informed us, Walt Disney started in a garage. I will guarantee you that all three of those people, when they started in their garage, did not have a business plan, but at some point every successful business ends up having to write a business plan, because at that point in the business development, you may need money. You may need to borrow money, and that will require a business plan. If you are receiving Ticket to Work benefits, you are qualified for a PASS Plan, and if you do a PASS Plan, you must have a business plan in order to receive any benefits that can be applied through the PASS Plan to your business. And by the way, a PASS Plan is an excellent tool, and excellent incentive, to help in the ongoing implementation and development of your business plan. Next slide, please. We do a 3-year projection of cash because that is the SBA's standard for developing a business plan. That 3-year projection should show some form of gross revenue, in other words, all the money that you make from sales, show some growth. You should see some growth in the bottom line, the profit that is left after you pay all your bills. And it's that 3-year projection that begins to show whether or not your idea is going to be an effective and successful one. Here's something to remember. Do you know it's just as hard to earn -- you have to work just as hard to earn $10,000 as you have to work to earn $100,000? So it's important to really try and maximize your effort to work smart rather than hard, and to have your plan be something that you can look at from year to year to see how you're doing and how you're going to be growing into the next step. We work closely with the Service Corps of Retired Executives, because we ask them to review all of our business plans. These folks are experts in certain fields of business, and this is a program of the SBA, the Small Business Administration. By handing our business plan off to SCORE, the consumer is getting an awesome opportunity to sit down with another expert, have a chance to get another perspective, and at the same time pick up another mentor. NEBA works with our people from 3 to 5 years to help them get their business off the ground. How about getting another mentor? So now they got 2 mentors helping. There has been a study done to determine why do some businesses succeed and others don't, and all of you out there are probably thinking, yeah, more money. Money does not guarantee a business will succeed. There are too many other elements and necessary activities that are tightly interwoven that are dependent upon a business succeeding, and having experts like a SCORE volunteer or someone like a NEBA business advisor working with an individual who is starting a business, that's very, very critical. How critical? It's been studied again, the success rate for the average business startup population is 30%. In any given year, only 30% of that population is going to succeed. In the population of startup businesses that use a mentor approach or background support, the success rate for that population is 80%. Now you know why NEBA uses that approach -- slide, please. We offer, as I said before, you can work with our instructors or we do have a computer-based program. And the moment the online program is going through revisions, so we are not actively using that one, but we can communicate online in another variety of ways, as well as through Skype and through telephone. We accept and will interview anyone who expresses an interest in starting a business, but basically, we evaluate as we go through the development of the financials whether or not this business has a pricing program related to the cost of the products to make a profit. So it's those three Ps -- product, profit and pricing -- that go together so importantly. It's one of those subtle things I just mentioned that you need to get help on to develop. And that's another reason why it's important for us to be working with someone who's more interested in doing a business, because having to put that much effort into a hobby to gain a very small return is not exactly the best approach to take. Slide, please. So if you're interested in writing a business plan with the support of the BDC, you can e-mail us. I often say to people, it helps if you have a computer obviously, but some of the folks with whom we work don't have computer access. We encourage them to get a flash drive, and we can work with them, if they can go to a library, use a computer, and we can talk while they're using their cell phone. There's a whole range of ways that we can make this work for people. I also require of individuals that when they start their business plan, their goal is to complete the plan. That is not our goal. My goal, the goal of all of our business instructors -- and we have about 5 of them at this point plus myself -- our goal is to help to change this thinking of an individual who has been interested in starting a business. We want them to see the opportunities, we want them to see the vision, we want them to see that it's possible to do this thing even though other people may be saying, it'll never happen. Trust me, when Edison did that light bulb -- you remember the light bulb? I'm sure there were a lot of people who said to him, "You're crazy, don't bother." Fortunately for us he kept working on the business idea, and then converted it into a business model. And that's what anybody can do. Slide, please. We do require that the business plan be completed within 60 hours or 6 months, whichever comes first, and if that timeline goes beyond that, then we will ask for some conversation about why. We do take into consideration medical crises that can occur in any situation, but it's important for us to make sure that people, if they have the ability to really do a business they've got to have the ability to somehow manage their time to move forward and get this accomplished. I think it's also important for people to understand that when a plan is being written, sometimes things change. And you might think, "How can that be possible?" Well, for example, they may come in for a name for the business and discover that name is very, very inappropriate for what they're going to do. So they will over time, change the name. They may have already put a website in place, because they felt that the business would really benefit from having a website and discover that the website might be better used as a platform for social media rather than the way they had originally thought that it would be used. So the course of learning that goes on is certainly how to use a computer, certainly how to be more competent with Excel and with Word, but other changes are going to happen at the same time, and this is an important thing for people to accept and understand that you may not know that these are the things that are going to happen. As I said earlier, we work with individuals who have disabilities. That's how this program was started. Slide, please. The Star program was started in 2007 with the Massachusetts Disability Developmental Council to determine if individuals with developmental disabilities would be valid candidates for starting a business. There were 8 indivdiuals who started at that time, and they determined that being self-employed was a very real option. David Hammis, who many of you who are in the field, have probably heard of David, for many years he provided the idea of self-employment, and his organization, Hammis Griffin, located at the University of Montana, has spent many years showing how the Ticket to Work program is a phenomenal platform to build a self-employment program. By the way, we call ourselves supported self-employment, because we grew out of supported employment. Neither has been around since 1983. We currently serve almost 500 people in the area of supported employment, and in 2007 our executive director realized, we should be offering supported self-employment. It took us until 2009 to get our first business plan completed and there were a lot of reasons why it took us so long to get our first business plan completed, but we had since about 2009 what I call the benchmark year for developing business plans. Since that time we've had about 194 inquiries from a wide range of resources. We also do fee for service. We do assist individuals on a fee basis if they're not on social security benefits or have no longer any access to a VR referral and/or they are socially challenged. We recognize that some individuals have economic challenges aside from disability, and therefore NEBA does try to provide an opportunity for those individuals. So since 2009 we have completed at this point over 70 business plans. This slide is a few weeks old and we've done a few more. Out of that population we have 48 active businesses. That means we have people -- I have herb farm people, someone who does CSA accounts, so you can purchase produce at the end of the growing season. We have individuals who are online therapists, if you can believe that. We have individuals who are movie producers, we have individuals who are stage and sell real esatte people. We also have the classic yard person, the baker, the restaurant owner. We have such a diverse range of busineses out there that it's pretty amazing. One of the questions that was asked was, well, do you work with artists? We have 48 active businesses, and of those 48, 3 or active artists, artists who are working to get their art recognized not only regionally but nationally, and who are trying to become financially self-sustaining. That is huge. These are individuals who are recognizing that their business concept is a challenge because not only do they have to market their business, they have to create the product out of creative endeavor, and that's a very challenging thing. I'm working with one currently who has just won an award for a national art magazine and has competed successfully to have her art shown nationally in this publication. That is going to go a long way towards getting her positioned as a recognized artist and as a person who can command big prices. She's already getting thousands of dollars for her art. She's been doing this for several years, but only decided a year or so ago to pursue a business plan and went to the Massachusetts Mass Rehab VR agencies to get her a more organized approach. And it's exciting to see someone in the arts in that way, succeed so well in a very relatively short period of time. She's an overnight success after 10 years, as they say. Of those 48 active businesses, we have 23 jobs that were created. Now, that means that some of those 48 businesses have hired employees. They are in new business, that means they created new jobs. That is huge. That means not only the 48 businesses paying taxes on their earnings, but they have hired employees who are creating revenue for their families, spending it in the community, and they are economic development engines, and that's huge. Those folks, those 23 new employees, are paying taxes, and that's an enormous benefit to our economy. When NEBA realized that work that we were doing through self-employment, as well as employment, they had changed their definition of how and what they are. They consider themselves an economic development corporation, and as that designation, we are now part of the Massachusetts CDC Alliance. The Massachusetts Community Development Corporations are reflective usually of economic development through housing, but they have begun to recognize that self-employment is huge, important part of a vibrant, energetic economy, and through that they are looking at self-employment as a much more important part of what their program has to offer. The number there that says that we have 23 tickets assigned, that number is now up to 60 we have, and I haven't checked it this week because I have actually been out in the field. I haven't had a chance to see it, so our ticket population is growing rapidly, and we are excited about that, to say the least. So slide please. We have 4 folks here that I'd like to highlight. We have a manufacturer who is actually an inventor first and a manufacturer. He was looking for SCORE and came into our office by accident, and when he asked what he did, I said, "Well, we help people with disabilities start business." And he said, "Well, I'm disabled. Can you help me?" And I said, "Absolutely." And he's been with us. This plan was written in 2011, he is now becoming a national distributor, and he will probably be off of his benefits next year. Joe Schmidt is a landscaper. He came with us in 2009. As a matter of fact, he was the second business plan we wrote. Today, Joe is in the process of buying a building for his business. He grossed - his gross revenues last year were a quarter of a million dollars. He has 8 employees, and when he started with us, he had 1. He is doing very well, and obviously he is moving, he is a person who will be coming off of his benefits. Maria has a nonprofit. Now, that's an interesting concept. Here I have 4 nonprofit businesses that have been developed. Maria is one of them. She happens to have Lyme Tick's disease, and she could not find any help for some of the things that she needed for information, so she's now created a Center where she provides that information, and she is looking -- she has a Board of Directors now and she is looking and planning of being off of her benefits in probably another year. Maria just finished a PASS Plan and is using that money from her PASS Plan to help fund some of the programs she's trying to develop for the use by Lyme tick victims. Sue is a retailer. She did her plan in 2012. She immediately started a PASS Plan, about a year later I think it was, she started a PASS Plan, and she is going to be finishing up her PASS Plan this year. It has helped her purchase inventory and pay the rent on her business. We write PASS Plans. I am told that we have the highest number of PASS Plans written to our cadre, and we promote PASS Plans for as many individuals as we feel are appropriate. Ken is not in a situation where a PASS Plan would help him very much, nor was Joe, but Maria and Sue are two individuals who have written a plan, PASS Plan. We have approximately I think 14 PASS Plans that have been written over the past 4 years. So that's a lot of PASS Plans and a lot of people taking advantage of how to use a Ticket to Work incentive to help your business move forward. Slide, please. So you can find us at our website, www.NEBAworks.com. Go to Programs, and then you will find us under the program slot. You can reach us through e-mail, BDC@NEBAworks.com. We do have a Facebook page, and we would be happy to talk to anyone who would be interested in considering, exploring or working towards being self-employed. I thank you very much for this opportunity to talk about a wonderful alternative to working and choosing work. Thank you. >> Okay, thank you very much, Colleen. We've got a couple of questions for you. One of the people wants to know how does that 60-hour 60-month time frame to complete a business plan work? >> It's not 60 months, it's 60 hours, and what we usually do, we usually work with an individual on a weekly basis, anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half one-on-one. They also have homework, so that 60 hour includes their time with me as class homework, and they usually get anywhere from 2 to 3 hours of homework. And then we meet the next week, go over the homework and move on forward. That's why I say, if they are here beyond 60 hours, there has to be a really critical reason why that happens. >> Okay, 60 -- it's 60 hours in 6 months. >> Or 6 months. >> Yeah, okay. >> Or 6 months. Right. Most people are done in 3 months, 3 to 4. 3 to 4 months is what it takes. >> Okay, and can you tell us a little bit more about how somebody will go about working with you from a distance? >> Well, we work it out on an individual basis basically. You contact us, I will call you, and we can then work out a process that's handy for you. If you need voice activated assistance, I have 2 people with whom I've worked on that long distance, and you can work on that basis. That does take a little bit longer because we do have to allow for the translator, if you will, time to take my comments and translate into a keyboard. But by and large, we will work in any way that it takes, and at this moment I will tell you, I'm open to any approach. We're open to any approaches, basically I want to say, but by and large it's the telephone or it's the computer or a combination of the two. >> Okay. And can you give us a list of the states that you serve? >> I can. My most recent as of last Friday enrollee is from Los Angeles, California. I work with Nevada, someone in Reno, Nevada. We are in Iowa and we are in Missouri. We are in the process of working with not only a client in New York, but an agency in New York also. We also help agencies replicate our program. Our program was designed to be replicable by other agencies, and we work with other agencies to do that, if there are people interested in that process. We have Massachusetts and Connecticut as our 2 primary states, because we have staff in both of those locations geographically. And so I think that covers it. >> Yeah. >> It's pretty exciting. As I say, when we started the program, who knew? >> Yeah, exactly. All right, well, I think it's time to move on, so thank you very much for sharing your program with us, and we will talk about how Social Security can help you with your self-employment goals. And before we introduce Terri to you, we are going to meet Ben. And I'm going to give that little magic ball to Mike so he can queue up Ben's video. [ Background sounds ] >> Independence. Fulfillment. Community involvement. These are some of the benefits that work provides. By working, you can earn more income, meet new people and learn new skills. What is the Ticket to Work program? How can it help you? Ticket to Work is a free and voluntary program from Social Security that provides you employment support services to help you go to work while still providing access to Medicaid and/or Medicare. It can help you go to work, which can give you a greater sense of purpose and help you give back to your community. With time, you will be able to replace your cash benefits with earnings from work, putting you on the road to financial independence, with the peace of mind that your benefits will be available to you if you need them due to your disability. Meet Ben. Ben qualified for the Ticket to Work program age 18 through 64 and received Social Security Disability insurance. If Ben received Supplemental Security income, he would also qualify for the program. Ben wanted to work but needed to understand how work would impact his benefits, especially his healthcare. Ben did some research and found out that over 360,000 people with disability had participated in a program. After doing more research, he decided that Ticket to Work was just the ticket he needed to be successful in going to work. When Ben contacted the Ticket Help Line, they talked to him about support form Social Security that he could use to go to work. He found that with Social Security, Ticket to Work and Work Incentives, he might be able to work while keeping his Medicaid or Medicare with the peace of mind that if he needed to stop working due to his disability, there would be a fast track back to restarting his benefits. With the Ticket program, Ben had a choice of service providers, employment networks, and state vocational rehabilitation agencies. He was able to select one of these service providers to work with him one-on-one to help him reach his work goals. Both could offer him specialized services, and he could choose which was right for him. VR agencies work with individuals who need more significant services. The services that Ben could receive include benefits in career counseling, education, training, and job search support. ENs are private or public organizations that may help with career counseling and assistance with job placement and more. Different ENs offer different types of services, so Ben could pick an EN that was just right for him. Ben also had the option to receive services from his state VR agency, and then when those services end, he could work with an EN to receive additional services that would help him find a job or keep an existing job. Ben took some time to think about his options and decided to assign his ticket to an EN. Ben's commitment to participate in the Ticket to Work program forged a partnership between him and his service provider. They both agreed to work together and jointly developed a plan that was just for him. His plan defined his work goals and described the specialized services that an EN would provide or arrange for to help him meet his goals. Ben's road to employment through the Ticket program is a two-way street. In return for assistance in getting a job, Ben pledged to Social Security that he would take specific steps determined by the plan he developed with an EN within time frames set by Social Security, to work at a specified earnings level or complete certain educational or training requirements. Taking the agreed-upon steps toward employment with time frames set by Social Security is called making timely progress. By taking these steps, Ben was able to fully take advantage of the support and protections the Ticket to Work program provided. You can be like Ben. The Ticket to Work program is here to help you become and stay employed, meet new people, and gain fulfillment and financial independence. We know it's a big step, but there is so much help for you all along the way. The Ticket program offers many tools and resources to help you learn about starting your journey to financial independence. Are you ready to work? Call the Ticket to work Help Line at 1-866-968-7842. For TTY, call 1-866-833-2967 to talk to one of our knowledgeable representatives or visit www.socialsecurity.gov/work to learn more. Good luck on your journey to financial independence. We are ready to help you on your way. [ Background sounds ] >> Okay. Thank you, Michael, and let's get back to business now. We are going to turn you over to Terri Uttermohlen who has been with the Social Security Administration for a long time, and is a great source of information on work incentives. So Terri, if you'd like to start, go right ahead. >> Thanks, Ray. Hi, everybody. I was stomping to that happy little music in that video. I was feeling kind of sad that I don't have any background tunes. I also don't have access to the slides, so Ray, if I miss anything critical as we're going through, don't hesitate to throw it in there. >> Absolutely. >> Slide 25. I want to talk a little bit about what the Ticket to Work is and what it isn't. We talk a lot about the Ticket like it's a thing, and it's actually a program. The Ticket to Work and Work Incentive Act developed this program to help people with disabilities find alternate ways to become employed. It's really about choosing something, perhaps a state VR agency but perhaps another agency that was willing to work with you to help you meet your employment goals. When they said it's free and voluntary, it's voluntary on both sides, so you would ask an employment network to work with you and they would decide whether or not they can. And in situations like self-employment, there may be really good employment networks out there who can help you develop your specific goal. I want to talk also a little bit about why people become self-employed. You heard in the earlier presentation that it's really important not just to try to make a hobby slightly profitable but to actually go to work, make a business dream big and hopefully make the business work, and I think a lot of times the temptation for people with disabilities is to well, nobody's going to hire me so maybe I need to start my own business. You really want to go into it with a commitment, because you want to make money, not lose money, and business isn't easy but it can be very helpful, and it is an alternate way to get yourself off benefits, to get yourself out of poverty, to make profit -- profit's a good thing. Anyway, so on this slide there is the phone number for the ticket helpline. The helpline is our call center that Social Security set up to help people who need information about Work Incentives, who need information about the Ticket to Work, who need help finding and employment network. The telephone number is 866-968-7842, and you'll hear it again and again on this call. If you are using adaptive technologies like a TTY, the number is 866-833-2967. You can also find a lot of resources on Social Security's website, which is www.socialsecurity/work in addition to information about Help Line and Ticket, there's information about other work incentives and resources, legislation, things that you can look up. [ Inaudible voice ] Let's go to the next slide. So why do you want to go to work, and are you ready to go to work? And most people want to go to work because they want to pay the light bill, and the reality is that benefits only stretch so far, especially if you're on SSI, and the goal of making money is why most people do it. It's why I go to work. Although I also enjoy my job and I value my colleagues, I want to make money. And that's the same reason that you would consider self-employment is to go out there and make money, doing something that you really want to do. And what it takes to get there is a lot of dedication, a lot of willingness to put yourself out there. It's hard to look for a job, it's hard to start a business. Let's go to the next slide. But what can the Ticket to Work do? How can it help you start a business? And the main thing that a Ticket to Work can do is help you pay for services. We don't give you money. Social Security doesn't give you money, but Employment Networks are paid when you are successful, and some Employment Networks who are willing to work with you might be able to help get you resources for self-employment that you wouldn't otherwise access. Next slide. Who's your employment team? And this is really, really important. It takes a village to raise a child, it takes a team to get somebody on disability benefits back to work. And the main person on that team is you. If you're not committed, if you're not driving the train, it may not happen. Now, what does driving the train mean? It means that you have to be able to do everything, you have to be able to write your own business plan, you have to be able to work in Excel and you have to be able to manage everything. Not necessarily at all. It may mean that you get people to help you figure out what you can do and help you figure out what you need to hire people to do. So there are ways to do it, and I've seen people with very severe impairments successful in self-employment, because they were able to hire people. They were able to do something that people wanted, they were able to make money doing it, and part of making that money was hiring a part-time bookkeeper and doing other things, things that weren't their skills. So you want a team, and part of that team is going to be either your state VR agency or the Employment Network that you choose to work with. But you are the main part of that team, and if you're not invested, it's not going to happen. Some of the other players that can help, state VR, WIPA, Work Incentives Planning and Assistance, and that's kind of the center of my life these days. Work Incentives Planning and Assistance projects are -- they're Social Security funded, community-based organizations that provide benefits counseling, and benefits counseling is when somebody sits down with you and they say, okay, you get this kind of benefits -- these are the Work Incentives you can access, You want to reach this goal, here are some resources that we can work together through to help you get where you want to go. Protection and Advocacy for Beneficiary of Social Security, which is PABS, is another resource, and that's if you experience discrimination or a barrier to work. The Protection and Advocacy organization provides free advocacy services, which can include legal services. Social Security also funds them, as well as other federal agencies. [ Inaudible voices ] >> Terri, I do have a question for you that's actually ripe for right now. On that last slide we talked about finding an Employment Network. Can you tell us what an Employment Network is? >> Well, I'm so glad you asked. See, I count on you for getting me to fill in those little spots. What is an Employment Network? An Employment Network is someone who has an agreement with the Social Security Administration that they will provide rehabilitation services to a Social Security beneficiary. An Employment Network can be pretty much anything. They can be businesses, they can be like you just heard, they can be businesses that help other people start businesses. They can be service providers that provide a lot of different services. If you call the Ticket to Work Help Line, they can help you get a list of the Employment Networks that serve people in your area, and there are also Employment Networks that serve people across the country. Essentially, as I said, they have an agreement with Social Security and if you are successful, they get paid. They don't get paid by you, they get paid out of the money that Social Security saves when you go to work. They are another alternative, and they can work with state VR agencies. You can figure out an arrangement with them where state VR might help you get started and then you would transfer to an Employment Network that might provide some support. That answers your question, right? >> Yes, it does, and I also have another question coming right from your little payment issue. What about WIPA, PABS and VR? Do they cost money? >> They do not, and they're funded different ways. State VR is funded by a combination of federal and state funds, and state VR, Vocational Rehabilitation, could be called something like DORS, Department of Rehabilitation Services, Vocational Rehabilitation services. They're a state agency that receives federal funds, and they help people get the skills or services they need or equipment that they need in order to go to work,. That's their job. And they don't have a choice. If you are a Social Security beneficiary, you're a high priority client to them. With an Employment Network, they do have a choice, because they may not have services that would fit you, and they have the opportunity to say, no, you're not a good fit for us. And you have an opportunity to say, no, you're not a good fit for me. State VR is a unique situation because they are paid by Congress and required by Congress to provide services. Protection and Advocacy and work Incentive Planning and Assistance, those services are also free to you. >> Okay. Now, let's get into the Work Incentives. >> All right, what are Work Incentives? What are Work Incentives? Well, they are programs, little bits of the law that Congress created to encourage people to go to work. They exist in a lot of different programs, and we're only going to talk about a few of them. And if you have questions about them, that's a good opportunity for you to contact your local Work Incentive Planning and Assistance Program, or to contact the Help Line -- that phone number we gave you earlier -- to talk to someone to see which Work Incentives apply to you. But they're really a way that you can go to work and for a short period of time keep some of your benefits, and possibly even for a longer period of time, depending on what you earn, and what's more important is they are a protection for your health insurance, either Medicare or Medicaid, and we'll talk about those in a minute. Next slide. Self-Employment Work Incentives. Most of the Work Incentives have applications to employment and self-employment but they're treated a little differently in self-employment situations, slightly different requirements. And we're going to talk about the self-employment side. So if you're going to be an employee, there might be slightly different applications. So the first thing we're going to talk about is the Plan to Receive Self Support. That's Slide 32. The PASS -- and we talked about this earlier in the presentation -- Plan to Achieve Self Support is an agreement between you and the Social Security Administration. It's a plan, literally. You say, I want to achieve this vocational goal, and then you'd say, "This is what needs to happen between now and the time that I achieve that vocational goal." It could be education, it could be needing specific equipment, it could be buying a facility for your business. It could be a lot of different things. But a Plan to Achieve Self Support is an agreement, which means that Social Security can deny if it's not well planned, and in order to do a PASS for Self Employment, you have to have a business plan. You absolutely have to have a business plan. Part of the PASS, the Plan to Achieve Self Support, might be setting aside money to pay for that, to pay for someobdy to help you build the business plan. That can be a step in a Plan to Achieve Self Support. What I mean by steps or milestones or things that you need to do on the road, it means you write out, okay, in June I'm going to take this class to get certified to do what I want to do with my business. In August I will write my business plan with X, Y and Z. And periodically you can update it. So what are you planning? You're also planning to set money that would normally count against SSI benefits entitlement aside in a special account, and that money is what you use to pay for your vocational stuff, and if you do that, the Social Security Administration ignores that money, pretends it's not there. That money can be resources, it can be income. PASS is really most useful for people who are on SSI or who receive Social Security and SSI benefits, or who have low income and few resources. People who are entitled to Social Security Disability Insurance can also have a PASS, but the money that you life on when you hae a PASS is Supplemental Security income. So SSI I think this year is $721 a month for an individual living in his or her own household, plus whatever excluded income you have. SSI is a program that lets some of your earnings and some -- very few -- but some unearned income like Social Security benefits, just lets it not count against your SSI benefits. But $721, if that's your SSI payment, and say you've got an excluded, maybe another $20, you're not going to be living on very much, and if you have a very high Social Security benefit it may not pay for you to write a Plan to Achieve Self Support. That's something that Work Incentive Planning and Assistance Program, a WIPA, can help you figure out. What are you setting aside? You have to have money other than SSI to set aside in the Plan to Achieve Self Support. That's really, really important. Now, with self-employment, you could have say a part-time job, and you're going to take that -- the money from that you, countable income from that part-time job, you're going to set it aside, and that's the money that you're going to use to build your business. You can be working, do a PASS, and to capitalize or begin the business. You can also write a Plan to Achieve Self Support to increase the business so that it's more profitable. Say you've been doing something for a while, and now you want to make it go big, you can write a PASS to help support that. [ Inaudible voice ] So what can a PASS pay for? PASS can pay for school, can pay for equipment, it can pay for pretty much anything you need. One of the PASS cutters that I used to work with called it a car buying club, because sometimes people needed a car in order to work. They lived in a place without public transportation and they would work and set aside their earned income to buy a car so that they could get a different job. You have to, with a PASS, you have to be going to earn more money at the end of the plan than you earn at the beginning. That's the bottom line, is you are setting this money aside and Social Security is saying, okay, what do we get? Well, we pay you less benefits. If you have SSI benefits, we pay a lower amount. If you only have Social Security benefits, it has to be likely to result in substantial gainful activity level work and I'll talk about SGA in a little bit, but it has to be likely to result in you leaving the benefit rolls. So it's not for everybody, but it is a very underused Work Incentive that can be very powerful for self-employment as well as for employment. Next slide. In order to write a Plan to Achieve Self Support, you need income other than SSI, you need a vocational goal, you need a plan, you need to fill out a form. Social Security has to agree with it. And I don't remember what else is on that slide, Ray. >> Okay, it's talking about -- you've covered a lot of it, Terri, talked about specific time frames for reaching those goals by making those milestones, and how much income you'll have when you reach that goal, and it's approved and reviewed periodically by Social Security. >> Well, and let's talk a little about the income piece. You do have to have an increase in income. You have to be projected. If it doesn't happen, nobody's going to come shoot you or anything like that, it's just you want to be genuine when you go into these plans, and you want to commit to setting aside the money in a separate account and not using it for other stuff, because then you might have an overpayment. This is a commitment. You're saying, "I'm going to do this," and you got to do it. You've got to be willing to keep records or have someone help you keep records. You've got to be willing to report. You've got to occasionally update it. But it is worth the work if you have a vocational goal and money to set aside in the PASS. If it's a good fit for you, it's worth to work, but you've got to want to do it, And again, we're talking about your employment team, you've got to be the one driving the train. So a PASS is great if you want to do it. The next slide, Impairment related work expenses. what are those? Impairment-related work expenses are out of pocket things that you buy, goods or services that you buy in order to work. They have to be necessary because of your disability, or an impairment being treated by a healthcare provider, you got to pay for them and nobody reimburses them. Impairment-related work expenses are used in both the Social Security Disability, so that's SSDI or DI or whatever you call it, in the Social Security Disability Insurance program and the SSI program. They do different things, but they apply to both programs. So actually I want to back up just a little bit and talk about the difference between those benefits because I think a lot of people get really confused. SSI, as I said, is a benefit where we look at resources, we look at income. It is a needs-based benefit, so if you have other income to live on, you're not going to get -- a lot of other income to live on -- you're not going to get SSI. If you have more than $2,000 in the bank and you live on your own, you're not going to be eligible for SSI. If you have more than $3,000 and you're a married couple living together, you're not going to be eligible for SSI. You might be able to set some of that money aside and write a Plan to Achieve Self Support to become eligible for SSI, but just based on what you got, you're not going to -- that's not going to happen. Social Security Disability Insurance, on the other hand, is a program because you worked and paid into the Social Security system, it's a benefit that is not based on need. Bill Gates can get Social Security Disability Insurance. It's based on what you pay in while you're working. Both of them have the same disability standards. Going back to the Impairment Related Work Expense slide, you can use Impairment Related Work Expenses in both programs. Let's go to Slide 35, which talks about substantial gainful activity, and then we'll go back to Impairment Related Work Expenses for a little more detail. Substantial gainful activity is a description -- it's part of the disability definition for Social Security. And the disability definition has two parts. You have to have an impairment, and you have to be unable to perform substantial gainful activity. Well, in order to make a definition that we assess, substantial gainful activity is actually a monetary amount. There's a certain amount that you're allowed to earn every month without affecting your benefits. If you earn more than that, that's when Impairment Related Work Expenses come in in the Social Security Disability program. SDA is a decision. It's not just a number, and the decision is after these deductions and after a few other deductions that we're not going to talk about today, is the value of the work that I've done this month over this substantial gainful activity level. And if it is, your benefits might be suspended depending on where you are in the back to work process. So now that I've confused everybody, we're going to go back to Impairment Related Work Expenses for a little bit, and talk about what has to happen in order for you to have this deduction. An Impairment Related Work Expense can be deducted if it's necessary for work, paid by you and not somebody else, reasonable -- it's got to be reasonable -- and the reasonable is of course a judgment call based on Social Security, not reimbursed by anybody, and paid in the month that you need the deduction. Under some situations, Impairment Related work Expense cost can be spread out over a period of time. What's important for people who are self-employed is as a business owner, you have the option of deducting costs from your gross income, your gross take. If you can deduct an expense as a business expense, I would deduct it there, because it's easier. The IRS is more lenient. They're not going to look at it as closely. If you can deduct it -- if you can't deduct it as a business expense and it isn't a medical expense or an Impairment Related Work Expense, then you want to make sure that you keep receipts, just like you would for the IRS, you keep the receipt and when you report your earnings, you give Social Security the receipt so that they can verify that you've had the expense and they can deduct it when they're making decisions, either about how much SSI you're going to get, or about your Social Security Disability Insurance benefit. So we've talked a little bit about Plan to Achieve Self Support, we've talked a little bit about what Social Security benefits are, what SSI benefits are, and we've talked a little bit about Impairment Related Work Expenses. Now we're going to talk about another Work Incentive on Slide 37, that is specific to the SSI program. As I said a minute ago, the Social Security Disability Insurance benefit is not a needs-based benefit. It doesn't matter how much you have in the bank. The SSI program, though, has very strict resource requirements. Property essential to Self Support is a Work Incentive that applies only to self-employed people and only -- self-employed people who receive SSI benefits, and what is Property Essential to Self Support? In a business, it's anything that belongs to a business. It can be a car, it can be a truck, it can be money in the bank, it can be a building, it can be equipment. It has to be used for the business to be excluded, but if it is excluded there's no limit as long as it belongs to the business. So it's a very powerful Work Incentive for SSI beneficiaries or people who write Plans to Achieve Self Support and become eligible for SSI and start their own business. Slide 38, we're going back to the Social Security program and talking about a Work Incentive that does not apply to SSI, at all, and that's called unincurred business expenses. And I want to go back to the SGA discussion. Remember when I said that you could take Impairment Related Work Expenses that amount from your gross -- your net profits when Social Security is deciding if the work is substantial? Unincurred business expenses are another deduction, only instead of paying it out of pocket, what they are, something that you would normally have to buy for your business that you don't have to buy because somebody's going to give it to you. And the best example I have of this is when my sister, who's blind, started a law practice, my mother types for her, she drove for her, she did her bookkeeping. All of those things had value. If Lou had done a Social Security Disability beneficiary -- not an SSI beneficiary but Social Security Disability Insurance -- when Social Security was looking at the net profit from her business to see whether or not it would affect her benefits, they could deduct the value of those things my mom did for her business. And the way to think about that is the value is what somebody would have had to pay for that same service. Bottom line for all of this stuff is just to remember that there may be deductions. If somebody gives you a service or they give you stuff, they say, "Hey, you know what? You can use my garage." Okay, normally somebody would have to pay rent for that garage, but I'll let you have it to start your business. Keep track of that stuff. Keep receipts if you've got them, or keep time, records, whatever, of things that people do to help you start your business, because you might be able to deduct it from net profit. And I'm going to go off topic in a minute and talk a little bit about what net profit it. I don't know if we've talked about this at all but-- >> Terri? >> Yes? Running out of time? >> We are out of time, but we're going to let you finish. >> Okay. I'm going to talk about three things, then, real quick. >> Okay. >> I want to talk about net profit. The only reason I talk about net profit, Social Security follows the IRS rules. Gross is what you take in from the business. Net profit is what you take in from the business minus expenses, and you use IRS rules to determine that. When Social Security is making a decision about how much SSI you get, or about whether or not your work is substantial, gainful activity for Social Security Disability Insurance purposes, they're going to look at the net profit, so that's the gross wages minus expenses. And the last slide I have, since I'm out of time, is talking about health insurance, Medicare and Medicaid. Under the SSI program, that's the needs-based program. In most states people have Medicaid coverage. There's a protection for SSI beneficiaries that allows people to keep Medicaid until they earn quite a bit of money, depending on the state you're in. So just know that you're not going to lose Medicaid right away if you go to work, and again it's going to be based on your net profit. Medicare is the health insurance that comes to people with disabilities who are on Social Security Disability Insurance, and there's a protection that allows you to keep Medicare for at least 93 months after you go to wrk and you use up something called a trial work period. We cannot cover all the Work Incentives. All I can say at this point is I probably put more questions in your head than answers, but the resources that are out there to help you answer those questions specific to benefits are Work Incentive Planning and Assistance, the Ticket to Work Help Line, Social Security's website -- there are a lot of really good tools -- and then the other resources for self-employment are many. And I'm going to stop here, because I'm out of time. >> Okay. Thank you, Terri. You did give us a lot of information but I just wanted to let everybody else know that there are in fact other webinars that are in the archive and that will be coming up that we'll talk about all of those Work Incentives in detail. As you can see, this is a very complex area, and it's going ot take a lot more than an hour and a half to get through it. So what we're going to do now is talk about some other resources. Now, we had a lot of people here and a lot of questions, and we couldn't get to them all, so we want ot make sure that you know where to contact folks. And we're going to talk specifically about some self-employment resources. Both Colleen and Terri talked about the Service Corps of Retired Executives. It's a nonprofit, and they are retired executives. These people have created their own businesses or run businesses, and they can help you grow and develop your business through education, through planning, through devising business plans, and through mentorship. Colleen mentioned that a lot. They can be reached at www.score.org. It's a great organization. The American Job Center provides a one-stop type link to federal programs and critical local resources, to help you find a job, identify training and gain skills in growing industries. Now, growing industries is one of those things that is going to be ripe for self-employment. That agency can be reached at www.jobcenter.usa.gov. The Small Business Development Center -- I think Colleen mentioned them as well -- are providing assistance to small business and aspiring entrepreneurs. Now, everybody on this call is an aspiring entrepreneur or you wouldn't be with us. They're going to help support your business growth, help sustain it and enhance your chances of success. They're fostering local and regional economic development through job creation and retention, and as Colleen mentioned, some of the people that she has assisted have hired employees, so there is job creation going on in the self-employment world, which is a wonderful, wonderful thing. That agency can be reached at www.sba.gov/sbdc. And the Community Development Corporations provide all sorts of programming that can help you to begin to think about what your business might look like, what you might want to do, how you're going to promote it. They can be reached in your local area through the One Stop centers but Community Development Corporations are there to provide you with further assistance, in either seeking employment, developing your own business, or hiring that first employee. That's a great step, hiring your first employee. Now, for more information, for those of you who didn't get your questions answered, please visit the website at www.socialseecurity.gov/work. You'll be able to find a list of Employment Networks, you'll be able to find a list of WIPA agencies, the Work Incentive Planning and Assistance agencies, you'll be able to find a list of Protection and Advocacy agencies, all in your states or national agencies. And if you want to start talking with somebody, the Ticket to Work Help Line is available at 866-968-7842, or for TTY users, 866-833-2967. We do have a survey that's going to pop up on you as soon as I close off the webinar. If you take 30 seconds and fill that out, we'd really, really appreciate it. And join us for our next webinar. It's going to be on Wednesday, May 28, from 3:00 to 4:30 Eastern time, and we're going to focus on people who have mental illness and how we can support their efforts to return to employment. So that's about what we have for you today. Again, any questions, give the Help Line a call, 866-968-7842, for voice, or 866-833-2967 for TTY. You can follow us on Facebook, if you're a Facebooky, at www.facebook.com/choosework, or follow us on Twitter, at www.twitter.com/chooseworkssa. And remember, in about two weeks' time, we will have this webinar posted to the archives, and you'll be able to listen to it again and see if you need any further assistance. Let us know. You have dozens of ways to contact us. there is no wrong way to get this started. I want to thank Colleen, I want to thank Jamie in the background, I want to thank Terri, I want to thank Michael for making the webinar work. Have a great afternoon and I apologize for keeping you late. Take care, everybody,.